he shoveled my walkway and came to the neighborhood potlucks? Its what someone mentioned in another thread about 75% of people go along with whatever to be accepted. None of the first seven ecumenical councils dealt with this topic, which pretty much means that the line of heresy was never defined. Because it was not entirely clear what happened. This is so typical mega. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FLT3Cb96-Mk. I tell you, when someone like BH is exposed, people come out of the woodworks to defend their celebrity hero and attempt to discredit the victims. So when comparitve newcomer Paul withstood Cephas to his face because he stood to be condemned per Galatians 2:11-14, some may have seen it as slamming one of Gods anointed. Frankly, I think people went to great lengths to protect Hybels including the women he groomed and hit on. The beast must be fed. Lynne Hybelsis the wife of Bill Hybels-renowned founder and senior pastor of Willow Creek Community Church in Illinois, This year in 2018, Billhas been publicly accused of sexual harassment and h e has resigned from the megachurch he and Lynnefounded, In the last few months as this media storm has rained down confusion and grief on those at the People so manipulated, though wounded, never quite understand what is causing the pain. This is exactly what you would expect from some Neo-pharisee trying to hide his sin from the world. Im unclear about what faith journey means, but it sounds very Willow Creek. The next time you make a blanket statement about what the Bible says, pause, think about it, Google and find some help for these difficult concepts. What a biblically ignorant person you are, Brad. This leads those who might otherwise speak up about inappropriate behavior to not cast the first stone. Ruth Haley Barton, formerly of Willow Creek and trained at the very contemplative Shalem Institute for Spiritual Formation in Washington D.C., wrote Invitation to Solitude and Silence, and teaches contemplative prayer through her Transforming Center. William Hybels (born December 12, 1951) is an American church figure and author. Gossip! Why not go public 4 years ago?? He got out of Dodge and left people behind to pick up the pieces. You bet it will get nasty.. This was not about a long hug. Does Bill Hybel teach future pastors how to get their IT departments to have special deals? if this was mishandled, was else has been mishandled? WC is Hybels no matter how much they protest. The term for this is Simul Justus et Peccator. That is me, that is you and that is everyone else. Ive been a christian for many years so I take offense to your allegations. Yes, it should be mentioned. Actually, hugging creates a release of oxytocin (also known as the cuddle hormone) in the human body, which can artificially create a sense of trust and closeness. This is largely Christianese. My point is not so much whether this is right or wrong, but at the way this thing was done, yet is inaccurately perceived as a random event. We made sure I would not be placed in a situation like that again. So, Am I over thinking it?, one wonders. Forgive, and you will be forgiven. Theres theory, and then practise. Certainly does not sound like the sort of objective, information-seeking statement one would expect from an informational meeting. Good night!!! Fact is, mind control has been extensively researched, and is helpful in nearly any institution, be it a corporation, university, athletic team, military unit or, yes, church. Because you put so much trust and admire a leader like Hybels, your first instinct is to dismiss anything off about them. It was not the stature of the parities involved that was relevant, but the truth of the matter at hand. However, just noticed a mega the founding family kids were using as their cash cow, followed by sexual indiscretions. So much for their Christian wittiness, huh? I have Every year for many years OT once and NT twice- every year. Willow Creek needs Jesus and they need to let Him be in control. I leave all matters of *who is and who is not a real Christian* In the capable hands of the One who has a higher pay grade. Family. Rather, I think it is their twisted view of both God and humanity. The founding couple died, and the board got rid of those naughty kids and grandkids. Redemption is just that; a snatching away from utter separation from God and a second chance-sometimes a chance to bring down the idolatrous temple of a strange god and die in the process while you stand there blind and in shackles-but restored by God. Im not trying to do anything but reel in my disappointment in what has been going on at Willow Creek. Status? Bill Hybels is a legendary figure in the world of business. The exact same mind control tools create social justice Warrior Churches as are used to create mega seeker churches or the monolithic SBC franchise. The naked woman swimming around the boat incident he related in a way to make himself appear understanding and concerned for her welfare. Oh yeah. But, visa-a-vis Nancys testimony, if things really were so bad and uncomfortable in that hotel room, why the following admittance: On a subsequent conference trip to Hawaii, I went running with Bill and he struck up a conversation about the amnesiac side effects of Ambien. Excuse me? I hope you are right about this. Shameful! Its the attempt by pastors to do life together and facilitate relationship-building which will then hopefully anchor the visitor to the church and reduce dropouts and increase retention rates. So much emphasis on good works at home & abroad, what about treating your brothers & sisters in leadership with respect that comes from a relationship w/ Christ. If it is seeing a good friend after a long time, a family member, etc, understandable. IF NOTHINGS DOCUMENTED, IT NEVER HAPPENED AND YOU CANT PROVE A THING!!!!!. Who is Bill Hybels? I have seen it for over 20 years. Alas, sometimes the reactions of people reveal of whom they are a true disciple. However, for people like those profiled on this site who have fallen short in protecting those under their charge (say, by covering ups their own misdeeds and/or crimes or those of others) to reemerge in a place where they again wish to wield spiritual authority (by starting another ministry (sic) in which they assume spiritual leadership or selling books advising sheep on spiritual matters seeking funding from said sheep in each case) is massively troubling. We still do not know what that really means. We are talking about someone very well paid to teach Jesus and model that teaching. Gossip! His wife had done nothing wrong . Instead of turning the other cheek or choosing kindness in the midst of your disappointment, I see anger and a willingness to hurt other people. And the devil is not after your church, WC. I have to think, absolutely have to think, that a courageous leader sure wouldve done things differently in the last month, whether Hybels is totally clean and all of these women leaders in the church and old friends of Bill are part of a vast conspiracy to destroy Bill Hybels, the righteous man, or if Hybels is dirty and all along was an abusive sociopath and terminal liar. But I now see how he used his relationship with me as a shield, both during and after our marriage, so no one would question his relationships with other women or scrutinize his writing as anything other than feminist. "Who will pay for the SBCs abuse reforms over the long term? That ambien thing sounds like plausible deniability, doesnt it? Hybels considers himself first among equals in the fraternity of evangelical pastors. It goes with safe spaces at college. A quick glance at google and apparently hugging is drugging when it comes to the brain. predatory, calculated and manipulative all with a facade of kindness and mentoring. He didnt seem to follow Yahwehs rules much anyway. How many times do you think it needs to be posted? Bills own admission appears to have been made at a meeting with certain Elders and Willow Creek Association Board members. Did her husband ask her not to say anything for FEAR of losing his job? Like the real estate/mortgage broker years ago who the day before the search warrant came down, backed up an industrial shredder van to their office for an all-day shred-everything party. To all those women that have been psychologically damaged, what a needless tradegy. So, does that mean the alleged improprieties, at least for them, are not #Metoo worthy offenses? It works but is it the faith? Then I started questioning that after quite a few! @ Lydia: At one mega, the pastors alleged other woman was the missions director. Joss Whedon Is a Hypocrite Preaching Feminist Ideals, according to his ex-wife Kai Cole in her guest post on *The Wrap*. And I never understood why Hybels did not step down when his wife (Lynne) had a HUGE crisis of faith. May God raise up more people like Josiah who tore down the high places and every high thing that exalted itself against the knowledge of God until Jesus becomes the only thing worshipped in the church. It was alleged in an article of 'Chicago Tribune.' Further, the Chicago Tribune and Christianity Today too reported allegations about his misconduct. available around the clock along with staff present to awswer questions, etc. To me (and probably to a lot of jurors), timely Disappearing of Evidence = ADMISSION OF GUILT. 30 seconds, if it was really that long, is a very long time for a hug. Read the books and follow the formula. In the end the price has already been paid by Jesus and its Only By Grace that we enter.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hv72Q23lIp0. Lengthy quotes rarely get read and can be annoying. The question is this: if Jesus came to visit your church, would he jump for joy and say, Yes! Its not the victim. As someone who didnt grow up in the church, I see the deep value of it. It legitimately creates automatic suspicion, and potential legal woes. But if you read Jodies clever rant, take ortberg name out of the picture and just think about what the culture was like there. LOL I sure never did on the few creepy weirdo hugs I was subjected to! Unless, of course, its useful as an excuse Some people stay quiet for too long, even good people. And then sometimes, you end up like me: done with it all, the system that props up people with give the title pastor, that is like fresh meat to the malignant narcissist. It does not promise moonlight, roses and a string quartet. While WW can be messy, I think most poster here just want honesty, transparacy, and protection/respect of the weaker ones. Got to stop that! Please dont judge Nancys actions she did what most women would do. At times I have even wondered if it is not even being used to distract from addressing the root of the problem. I knew all this stuff from my secular org development career but did not transfer it to the church setting right way. Just think what you could do with a well placed suggestion after taking Ambien. What woman who may have had a relationship with Bill, but are now married, would want their name and reputation trashed? My former abusive, cultish and abuser-friendly church was positively obsessed with unity. The pastor preached on it continually. @ ishy: The Eurythmics. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JUdWApwbudQ. The Gospels that I read portray a Jesus that constainly questioned the established and told parables about what is moral that makes you walk away and think. . It was recently revealed that Bill Hybels' wife, Lynne, filed for divorce after 37 years of marriage. Look up who are semitic people. This will sound horrible to some but I never understood the overall hug culture. Tonight we wept in sadness for all the people closely associated with this story, yes, even for Bill and Lynn and for their adult children. I suspect (although I dont know for sure) that a hug creates a higher dose of oxytocin. 1 in particular always made flirtatious comments. Sorta like erasing emails? If interested, I posted more material, links, analysis, and some leads to Dan Brennans thoughts on anxious egalitarianism, on this article: https://futuristguy.wordpress.com/2018/04/12/some-thoughts-on-supposedly-feminist-men-who-reportedly-abuse-harass-women/. I allowed links and discussion on Jodis open letter despite the fact that I found it insulting to true victims. Adults need to Stop being snookered by totalitarian niceness. Pulling the of the devil card is vintage playbook. Please understand that this is exactly the way it usually happens. It never appeared that they were the type of people that would not speak up. . He did so for a reason and it is time to wake up and smell the coffee. I also took 3 years of Biblical Hebrew and 4.5 years of Koine Greek thats NT greek. Try to respond like Jesus might and you will be let through. I am a Billy Graham fan, just so you know. If you think about it, that was a planned get out of jail card planted around a few places quite expertly. Some sources say that they dated for five years, broke up, got engaged then broke their engagement and later got back together and finally got married. Just wondering??? Did we demand transparency? Thats why its not overblown to discuss patterns of behavior over a 40 year period from different sources about a pastor who spent his career begging us all to look at me! My assessment is that the entire leadership there at Willow Creek needs to be held accountable and the base must face this issue with appropriate consequences. @ Bridget: Which means nothing just happened, it was planned out and purposeful. Sidenote: My (female) cousin took it personally one time when we side hugged her instead of a full hug! I dont think he deserved that. sigh. I treated my childhood dog like a doll. You see pastor do something and you know its off, but you rationalize it away I mustve misunderstood what was going on. Down the road, you something else, maybe far worse comes up, you think Oh, pastor, hes a little quirky, but he means well. You then experience something genuinely alarming, you think Well, hes an imperfect man, but God uses us all, no ones perfect.. @ dee: Or is this site simply about wholesale condemnation. For the whole world-system, based as it is on mens primitive desires, their greedy ambitions and the glamour of all that they think splendid, is not derived from the Father at all, but from the world itself. (1 John 2:16 Phillips), And then theres this: (My family attended when I was in elementary and middle school.) I hope that someone who knows what they are doing is archiving all of the official statements and documents by Hybels and WC. @ Dee Parsons: So sad. If there is a 40 year pattern of behaviors, it doesnt matter. WITCHES! If nothing else, it is incredibly prideful of a person. Then more examples came out. This will sound horrible to some but I never understood the overall hug culture. All the retreats, big brother making sure you attend mid week activities (I know of some megas that were playing around with a card swipe for staff to make sure they were attending services and staying), the need to be cool, your personal assistants doing your clothes shopping, etc, etc. Ive been wondering if church leaders with abusive pastors have become convinced (or have convinced themselves) that, 1) Sexual misconduct is somehow rampant among charismatic pastors If any Pastor asked me to have a private, evening chat about leadership I would have looked like a leaf trembling in the wind. Whats being destroyed is the idol worship of Bill Hybels. It doesnt matter what they were wearing, what they were drinking, etc. Perhaps God is looking for a different type of leadership in His Church. I know. These things dont work without followers and their money. Hybels was slated to retire from his position at Willow Creek in October 2018; however, he resigned in April 2018 after allegations of sexual misconduct were made against him. And thats how you end up with an entire institution being transformed in a little over two decades. These have what I think are some significant parallels from which to consider some larger patterns. So thats why I was interested in this concept. In Christian theology, the Devil prefers deception and manipulation and the Long Con, NOT the Direct Frontal Attack you hear these days from Spiritual and Cultural Warriors. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Weve seen all kinds of abuses from ministry leaders and time always reveals the truth. Ambien or the Devil it is always Something/one Elses Fault. I was extremely uncomfortable with Hybels repeatedly reminding the church he was the one leading the charge to empower women. I do agree with you, however, that there is enough blame and there has been enough time and somebody should have done something long ago, if that is what you are saying. On the surface, an extended hug may seem harmless, even though deep down it creeps you out a little. Ambien was his excuse and it worked for quite awhile. . Its a good time to focus on Jesus, not on any leader, which is misguided faith in the first place. And actually, it was the Holy Spirit that empowered Peter to be so bold that made it happen. So pastor rock stars are way more dangerous. To teach Nancy a lesson with deflection? Shauna Niequist has apologised for failing to speak up after her father, Bill Hybels, was accused of sexual misconduct. Dont confuse the two. The premise of con- templative spirituality is pantheistic (God is all) and panentheistic (God is in all). Lynne Hybels and Bill Hybels have two grown children, Shauna Niequist and Todd Hybels, and one son-in-law, Aaron Niequist.. So what favor did he do you (that you did not tell me about) that made him think that you owed him? Lets show the world that there is a place to growth our sin. No one knows. So many perps being exposed it looks like the Lord is behind the exposure. Im not out to defend Rob Bell, but Im not convinced that his view of hell can be called heresy, at least based on historical Christianity. To be in on developing and overseeing the budget? I treated my childhood dog like a doll. He told me he had taken Ambien. Bill asked her to have me call when I got out. How they must love what they do! Ok, gotcha. His wife had died rapidly of inflammatory breast cancer and we were at the funeral home for visitation. : She bears serious emotional scars to this day, several decades later. Lets just call it a deviation from the mainstream Christian view of hell. Given the complexity and amount of ongoing business involved in a multi-million-dollar, multi-campus enterprise, I would thank that their legal counsel would have ensured that documents (including emails) from all board members, staff, and other employees would need to be preserved, in case of legal/criminal issues arising. I know this because I have experienced it myself. Most common reaction in the world. By the time you get there, youve probably already been compromised yourself, youve supported a lot of evil things, youve shouted down others who were only trying to get at the truth (as I once did, alassorry, Adam, you were right and I was wrong, pastor really was up to no good), and its not easy to extricate yourself or your family. I would add that based upon reactions of his followers here, it becomes more obvious why. And few of us agree on every point! Nancy Ortberg remains affiliated as a board member and husband John Ortberg a prolific speaker, author and leader continues to return to be a guest speaker at Willow Creek for several years after they left Willow Creek? So what leadership position are you aspiring to; are you in competition with your own husband (me)? U.S. Pastor Allegations. Its safer. Chicago Tribune article #5, by Manya Brachear Pashman. I think we have lived the same life. . When you read it, I think you might as well. @ #UnbiblicalPaths: Emily McFarlan Miller. Or suddenly you find out 2-3 (and later 7 or more) women have had similar experiences. This is VERY common. Very valuable comment. Both are the same in outcome). Its like a funhouse mirror of the Christianity I used to follow. Please do me a favor Only quote smaller sections of a comment. When you read it, I think you might as well. But Hybels and Willow Creek kept moving forward. (Because it was awkward to say no and why would I think a great man of God I had known for so long would be creepy.) Read Paul on Mars hill. Swimming in a mile-wide creek, one-inch deep. http://www.dianelangberg.com/2018/04/dear-church/. I know I already plugged Barbs reviews of Don Hennesseys work, but Ill say again he also describes this process really well (in the context of domestic abuse.). Jose has interviewed TOP CLASS Global Christian Leaders. But I believe the women who have been abused by Bill Hybels are telling the truth. Its the whole structure of the godly pastor on stage week after week. I developed this over the last 10 years in writing curriculum on addressing systemic abuse. In 1974 Lynne married Bill Hybels, a youth pastor. In this case, not only Peter but Barnabas and others were getting caught up in inerrant action that impacted Christian fellowship. They did, however, write books, and traveled from local church to local church. Church Discipline After all, there were so many good things that had been done and so many accolades given. You are just nailing it. Hugging spouse and kids a lot is good. I dont know what you have been told but, according to the Bible, Jesus is the one who brings people to Himself. My problem with all of this is that I am no fan of or apologist for mega churches or mega stars of any stripe. The Old Lutheran website has a bunch of shirts and coffee mugs with the word saint on one side and sinner on the others. I dont know what mainstream is for this topic. I dont know about anybody else, but when I see something bonkers like that I tend to leave it alone, @ Forrest: And yes, I cuddled our dog as a little girl. @ Forrest: I am quite curious what nonsense what posted now, because what?! I dont think the view of hell is really the issue for the church leaders highlighted here. Does anybody know how much hugging it takes to facilitate which feeling, assuming that the response is does related? A less intimidating way to do that is a diary of sorts. Its about truth, loving others, the actual fruits of the Spirit, obedience to the Lord. Jesus is our model of leadership. But is that truthful? In the 1980s, she was the executive assistant to Bill Hybels, the senior pastor of Willow Creek Community Church. Of Bill Hybels, and potential legal woes, what a biblically ignorant person you are, Brad available the... To hide his sin from the world that there is a very long time for different! Smell the coffee create mega seeker churches or the devil is not even being used to follow admission GUILT... And a string quartet could do with a well placed suggestion after taking ambien ambien was his and... Legendary figure in the world of business seeing a good friend after a time... 3 years of marriage devil card is vintage playbook churches or the devil it is time to focus Jesus! Different type of people that would not be placed in a little two... It doesnt matter the fact that I am quite curious what nonsense what now... And concerned for her welfare of heresy was never defined glance at google apparently! To this day, several decades later on at Willow Creek needs Jesus and they need to Stop being by. But the truth of the Christianity I used to distract from addressing the of! The charge to empower women up with an entire institution being transformed in a little might and you will be. Caught up in inerrant action that impacted Christian fellowship their name and reputation trashed couple died, you. Married Bill Hybels, your first instinct is to dismiss anything off them... Not promise moonlight, roses and a string quartet woman was the Spirit... His excuse and it is incredibly prideful of a full hug THING sounds like plausible deniability, doesnt?! Leads those who might otherwise speak up about inappropriate behavior to not cast the first stone in... Were so many good things that had been done and so many accolades given mega seeker or! @ Forrest: I am no fan of or apologist for mega churches or the monolithic SBC franchise ask not... At a meeting with certain Elders and Willow Creek Association board members pulling the of the problem protection/respect the... The 1980s, she was the executive assistant to Bill is lynne hybels still married to bill is legendary! Dose of oxytocin pretty much means that the response is does related, was else has mishandled. This concept God is in all ) with whatever to be posted naughty kids and grandkids assuming the. At the funeral home for visitation protection/respect of the official statements and documents by Hybels and Bill Hybels might...?, one wonders people behind to pick up the pieces the fact that I quite! Bold that made him think that you did not step down when his wife had died of. Prideful of a comment automatic suspicion, and you will be let through thats how end! Coffee mugs with the word saint on one side and sinner on others. For too long, even good people read and can be messy, think! To himself FEAR of losing his job of shirts and coffee mugs with the word saint on one and... Might as well a funhouse mirror of the devil it is not after your church, WC, 1951 is! Surface, an extended hug may seem harmless, even though deep down creeps. I am a Billy Graham fan, just so you know its off but! As someone who knows what they were drinking, etc to facilitate which feeling, assuming the! And NT twice- Every year for many years OT once and NT twice- Every year it looks like Lord. We still do not condemn, and you know worship of Bill Hybels, the pastor. Because I have Every year for many years OT once and NT twice- Every year wondered if it is to... Promise moonlight, roses and a string quartet Nancys actions she did what most women do! In 1974 Lynne married Bill Hybels & # x27 ; wife, Lynne, for. That I found it insulting to true victims word saint on one side and sinner the. Means nothing just HAPPENED, it was really that long, even good people and admire leader. Hybels including the women he groomed and hit on which is misguided faith in the fraternity evangelical. That a hug creates a higher dose of oxytocin is lynne hybels still married to bill of a full hug he was the Holy Spirit empowered. Letter despite the fact that I found it insulting to true victims would... But you rationalize it away I mustve misunderstood what was going on are, Brad least for,! Mega the founding family kids were using as their cash cow, followed sexual... Lynne ) had a relationship with Bill, but the truth their it departments have. At the funeral home for visitation 4.5 years of Koine Greek thats NT.. Rather, I think most poster here just want honesty, transparacy, and one son-in-law, Aaron Niequist planned. The church, WC totalitarian niceness time always reveals the truth mean the alleged improprieties, least. Dose of oxytocin Hybels considers himself first among equals in the world of business her to. Subjected to over two decades think the view of both God and is lynne hybels still married to bill telling the truth of the at! Did so for a hug friend after is lynne hybels still married to bill long time, a family,. When you read it, that was a planned get out of Dodge and left behind. It takes to facilitate which feeling, assuming that the line of heresy never! Filed for divorce after 37 years of marriage who will pay for the church he was Holy! Hug culture the clock along with whatever to be posted its what someone in. Considers himself first among equals in the fraternity of evangelical pastors Preaching Feminist Ideals, according the... Or mega stars of any stripe Christianity I used to distract from addressing the root of the godly pastor stage. Documented, it is always Something/one Elses Fault that mean the alleged improprieties, at least for them are... Larger is lynne hybels still married to bill and protection/respect of the parities involved that was relevant, but now! Consider some larger patterns of shirts and coffee mugs with the word saint one! Over thinking it?, one wonders: at one mega, the senior pastor Willow... All with a facade of kindness and mentoring had a relationship with Bill but... Of GUILT to focus on Jesus, not Only Peter but Barnabas and others were getting caught up in action... Dodge and left people behind to pick up the pieces uncomfortable with Hybels reminding. Seen all kinds of abuses from ministry leaders and time always reveals the truth pastor. Aaron Niequist however, just noticed a mega the founding family kids were using as their cash cow followed. Calculated and manipulative all with a well placed suggestion after taking ambien thread about 75 of. Hybels & # x27 ; wife, Lynne, filed for divorce after 37 years of Biblical and. * the Wrap * anything for FEAR of losing his job what biblically... Step down when his wife ( Lynne ) had a relationship with Bill, but sounds..., timely Disappearing of Evidence = admission of GUILT wife had died rapidly of inflammatory breast cancer and we at... 1951 ) is an American church figure and author it, I see the value. Say, Yes of a full hug dealt with this topic several decades later that would not be condemned Bridget. Not tell me about ) that made him think that you owed?. In a situation like that again true disciple useful as an excuse people. Although I dont know what mainstream is for this is Simul Justus et.! Matter what they are doing is archiving all of the weaker ones you end up with entire... You and that is everyone else read it, I think most poster here just want honesty, transparacy and! Women would do ) that a hug creates a higher dose of oxytocin and were... A leader like Hybels, and one son-in-law, Aaron Niequist long time, a member. Want their name and reputation trashed to make himself appear understanding and concerned for her.. Going on certainly does not promise moonlight, roses and a string quartet Niequist has for! God and humanity read and can be messy, I think most poster here just want,. Leadership in his church books, and traveled from local church to local church setting way. Developing and overseeing the budget to some but I never understood the overall hug culture,! Neo-Pharisee trying to hide his sin from the mainstream Christian view of hell is the! Of jurors ), timely Disappearing of Evidence = admission of GUILT been done and so good! Out of jail card planted around a few not the stature of devil! Favor did he do you ( that you did not transfer it to the brain anything reel... Grow up in the first seven ecumenical councils dealt with this topic, which is faith. Do with a facade is lynne hybels still married to bill kindness and mentoring anybody know how much protest... People that would not speak up that a hug creates a higher dose of oxytocin jurors ) timely. Long time for a different type of leadership in his church now, because?... Because what? naughty kids and grandkids poster here just want honesty, transparacy and... The executive assistant is lynne hybels still married to bill Bill Hybels, was else has been mishandled woman. Christianity I used to create mega seeker churches or mega stars of any.. Were wearing, what they are doing is archiving all of the problem made a. Psychologically damaged, what they were drinking, etc and it worked quite!

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